Student
Moderator  Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 14/9/2004 at 09:37 |
Consider what you mean by democracy, whether it is just a matter of
elections, or whether there are other elements to it too. But also note
that this is a 'Human Dimension' discussion, and the question is
deliberately about people not states. Now, it's all yours ....!
M
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Student
Student  Posts: 3 Registered: 19/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 26/9/2004 at 09:17 |
The democratic way of the development of our countries is directed to the
equolity of rights and opportunities of the citizens
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Student
Student Posts: 6 Registered: 19/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/10/2004 at 14:04 |
It is very sad to read at the newspapers that we should take into account
that the people and the states are not ready for democracy... let's wait
for some time with all reforms, etc. I think democracy for Central Asian
people is in general good appearence but not for all. Democracy can bring
qulified pre-trial investigation procedures, open and fair trials,
penitentiary institutions without torture and ill-treatment, extensive
ombudsman's activities, fair elections and as the logic result the rotation
of the executive and legislative power officials, reducing of corruption,
observation of human rights and being agreed with the previous reply I'd
like to add - this way is directed also to make the laws work not depending
on who is before this law. Some governmental officials do not see it as an
applicable for them, first of all, calling the community to be considered
with the time, mentality, lack of money, etc, etc.
But Central Asians can bring to the democracy their patience :)
[Edited on 9/10/2004 ]
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Student
Moderator Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 12/10/2004 at 10:36 |
Wow, excellent answers!
The second person seems to think democracy can offer her/him a lot ... So,
what are you waiting for? Are you waiting for the next election, or for the
next generation to get into power, or for the Central Asian states to
accumulate more capital, or for ideas just to slowly shift over time? ...
Is patience always a virtue?!
M
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Student
Moderator Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/11/2004 at 15:03 |
Can nobody offer any more thoughts on this subject? I challenge you to
think about how Central Asia's traditions could influence democracy. Would
it be possible, for example, to aim at democracy through reformed mahallas?
Connected to that, could there be some sort of citizen-control through a
representative national council of aksakals? Or are these traditions all
impossible to combine with democracy?
Don't just assume that democracy means the system they have in Britain.
M
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Student
Student Posts: 11 Registered: 19/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 18/11/2004 at 08:25 |
When we start to talk about democracy, we immediately say it is foe people
and governed by the consent of people. It is not a democracy.
By democracy, I beleive that it is a time when: you understand yourself
over the yourself; understand yourself over the rest of your life; when you
undertand yourself you will understand your function; what you like and how
you like them. We need to find our places in this life. We had a huge
peoblems due to mahalla principles, traditional beliefs, aksakals, and
other similar social pressure. We should free ourselves form them. It is
our own life and only we should make it how we would like it to be. We
should act according to ourselves and not to society or mahalla.
It is a democarcy when you undersdtand yourself.
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Student
Moderator Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 26/11/2004 at 09:41 |
Is that really sufficient? I am sure that it would help, but you seem to be
talking about self-awareness, not 'democracy' as such.
Or are you trying to argue that Central Asia can offer democracy a way of
turning its focus back to the personal level? That would be an interesting
position to hold, and could have certain strengths over, for example,
US-style democracy where there are hundreds of millions of people, but only
two real choices for President. But you need to justify this interesting
position if we are all going to believe you!
M
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Student
Moderator Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 4/12/2004 at 17:34 |
And what about the other side of the coin? What can democracy NOT offer
Central Asians? And what can Central Asians NOT offer democracy?
M
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Student
Student Posts: 3 Registered: 28/2/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 3/3/2005 at 14:59 |
For me democracy means—
1. Every person has a choice and ability to take or not to take part in
political life of the state. This participation can take active or passive
(through elections) forms.
2. There should be a certain level of readiness and will of a single person
in the society to react to the situation when the government fails to
respond to the needs of a society (this includes creation of NGOs and
governmental bodies that are establishing the connection between the state
and the people).
Some say: Democracy was not designed for and does not suit the Central
Asian region.
If I look at the definitions people give to democracy from the personal
perspective, I see that there is nothing Western or Eastern in it. Rather
for me these ideas represent the natural aspirations of people to be free
and to have a choice, to live together in cooperation and have equal
opportunitites etc.
When it comes to institutions, e.g. to mechanisms of democracy, they may
vary from country to country.
So, my point is that there is no Central Asia vs. Democracy as an idea.
Democracy offers Central Asia an approbated to a certain extent way of
development, that so far has been acknowledged as the relatively effective
and fair to the citizens of the state..…And here where patience will become
a virtue, because democracy is a process in the law, institutions, minds of
people. Democracy cannot be imposed but vistradana.
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Student
Student Posts: 8 Registered: 1/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/3/2005 at 17:18 |
Who invented democracy? What are the values of that called "democracy"?
Democracy isn't a cake that can be eaten at once, without stable basis! It
is not coup, it is not percievable. Forsome reasons the biggest problem is
interpretation of the principles of democracy. One who is tempted to ask
the question on democracy shall address to the very qualified masters of
democracy!. Who are they? Are democracy is the mean of expressing some
American or Western ideas to the people of Central Asia or other regions.
There are some moments I'd to express in a nutshell. For the question what
democracy can offer Central Asia is to Live equal and Die Free and to be
real HUMAN in its various modifications. Democracy is a bullshit, but we
don't invent yet more perfect than Democracy indeed. So, notwithstanding
some moments DemocrACY IS A LIFE
UNDER THE EQUAL SUN AND MOON.
Let's enjoy democracy somewhere!
Viking from Tashkent
[Edited on 7/3/2005 ]
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Student
Student Posts: 8 Registered: 1/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/3/2005 at 07:26 |
My friend Viking,
It is very true what u said about the democracy but I would refrain from
the statement that there are no sample for a real democracy...
Democracy has some universal rules and basics. In our contemporary world
those countries that chose the path of democracy have to comply with those
rules.
Therefore, everything can be evaluated in comparison... Of course there are
no pure democracies in the world but there are some states like New Zealand
for instance which are standing really close to it...
In terms of the question what CA countries can offer democracy… I think
absolutely nothing because if we'll try to reshape the meaning of democracy
in our countries it will lead us to a fallacy not democracy.... We have to
get rid of such slogans as: “we have to chose our model of democracy”
because there are only two options for democracy: to exist or not exist in
a certain country other things serve as excuses for not fulfilling
universal norms of the value called democracy…
Regards from the city of blue domes :)
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Student
Student Posts: 7 Registered: 8/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 8/3/2005 at 12:45 |
Democracy.....hmmm.......in Central Asia......
Well, let me start by saying that I do agree with the statements given by
above students, however there is still a lot to be discussed and argued
about.
Some people say that the word Democracy can not be applicable not only to
Central Asian states but also to any Muslim state, claiming that CA people
are not ready enough yet to accept that kind of 'western' democracy as they
still arrive in a post-soviet spirit. Now question arises: whether
Democracy is percieved differently or if there are several types of
democracy. There are aslo attitudes that Democracy is not applicable to CA
states because of their beliefs and life perceptions, religion and cultures
saying that at least gov. should lead the socitey in "Eastern" type of
democracy which is a bit different from Western one. This "new" kind is
considered to be in some respects limited or restarined, getting people to
have constraints in their access to their freedoms and rights. Uzbek
speaking students might have heard the translation of this Eastern
dem.--SHARQONA DEMOKRATIYA--- and I am sure they had some reasonings on
this issue. I still can't figure out wheteher Democracy should be applied
to differnt countries differently or may be I even don't want to undertsand
this point of view!!!! To my mind, democracy, in all meanings, will bring
the same prosperity and freedoms to CA people as it does to the poeple of
the rest part of the world (democratic states) and will never turn the
country to a worse side only because it is Central Asian state. When
talking about CAsians, people offer their own fulfillments of their rights
and obligations they carry before Democracy principles as well as
appropriate understanding of it.
Arguments?
"Media" girl :o
[Edited on 8/3/2005 ]
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Student
Moderator Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/3/2005 at 07:46 |
Good contributions (just remember to keep them anonymous for your own sake
- this is a sensitive topic).
Obviously democracy is more than just elections, but the election process
is still a vital element to the OSCE. So, have the recent elections in
Kyrgystan and Tajikistan, and the OSCE's assessment of those election, made
you feel that your region is becoming more, or less, democratic?
And, since you are all talking about Central Asian (or Eastern) approaches
to democracy, is the OSCE ready for any different approaches to
democracy?
M
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Student
Student Posts: 7 Registered: 8/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/3/2005 at 18:06 |
Good Question, by the way--if OSCE ready? But it would be better off to
ask the OSCE itself if it is. As for my part, I' d rather be willing to
clarify first if there are really different approaches to democracy? Since
there is no official resolution or adoption, if u let me say this way, on
existence of diffrent approaches, it means the OSCE can't consider this
issue as serious one and no need for it to spend (waste) time thinking
about its readiness.
And in the case if there are diffrent approaches and understandings of
democracy, the OSCE should implement new technologies and directions,
projects as well as observations and give appropriate recommendations or
suggestions for countries on implemeting those in their policies. What I
mean is that the OSCE surely should have some reasonings on "Central Asian
types of Democracy".
UzWLU
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Student
Student Posts: 14 Registered: 9/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/3/2005 at 16:49 |
Finally, I got involved... I wanted to raise a point related to the very
sense and necessity for rapid democratic changes here and of the way we
perceive democracy as such.
Well, there certainly seem to be trade-offs in the democratic developments
in Central Asian states. It may not always be an easy choice of the good
over the bad, i.e. of the democracy over something else (perhaps it is
never even always the good over the bad). Sometimes, one encounters the
“two rights” and one is caught in the middle on what to pursue. Much like
one cannot really have low level of corruption while 83% of the population
lives under/on the poverty line of $1.15/day. Of course, it needs to be
pointed out that democracy certainly brings more good than harm, but still
it is really hard for the country to understand what democracy is really
about when media and United States foreign policy sometimes spoil the very
understanding of democracy among “average” citizens in our country. Thus,
in turn, turns people’s attention away from a large crusade of the many
international agencies and donor organizations operating in Central Asia
under the flag of promoting democratic principles. So I would suggest that
democracy in its pure form (a little vague definition though) might offer a
lot more opportunities to Central Asians and, especially, to those who
initially kept their eyes close to why there are so many of us so
desperately willing to promote democratic principles wherever possible.
However, some Central Asian states (e.g. Tajikistan) are surrounded by the
democratic changes in the West which we would want to realize in our own
countries as well. But the problem, as I see it, is that the West already
has the necessary springboard to accelerate to those stages while Central
Asian states are in a way pressured to reach those stages through Western
ways, ways that entail certain types of infrastructure not yet set up in,
let’s say, Tajikistan. Sometimes, adopting means not suitable to our
initial conditions may bring about more harm than good. Of course, one
cannot also brush aside the fact perhaps if our country adopts the same
system, it can reach the same stage as that of the developed countries by
hastening its economic development process and pursuing democratic
principles including transparency and accountability. And maybe, if it
attains some success, the gap may just be lessened. Whereas if it continues
with its own pace, it may be progressing (by pursuing another… maybe a
semi-democratic and semi-smth else way) but on the whole there is no net
change as developed countries also continue their progress.
Hence, a question arises: are we really sure that people wouldn’t be
willing to further discover new criteria for considering a country to be
democratic? In this case, Central Asian states might be always catching up
with their, let’s say, Eastern European counterparts, but does it really
worth it in terms of who has (or hasn’t) more this and that? Or maybe
considering our unique traditions, culture, religious attitudes and
politico-social environment, we might want to invent a new modified (or
adapted) way, which might also be seen as a democracy but for Central
Asians?
Any comments, suggestions, short speeches? :-)
SM from Tajikistan ;-)
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Student
Student Posts: 7 Registered: 27/2/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 11/3/2005 at 21:37 |
We all are discussing what is democracy but still do not exactly know the
answer, or rather, each of us has its own point of view. As for me, I
absolutely agree with the last comment since I think democracy is not
something definite and distinct. It varies. What I mean is that you will
never know whether one thing accepted by one country will be accepted that
good by another. This is the question: Shall we try to build a democratic
society as it is written in “manuals” or some kind of modify
and adjust it? Last ten years we have been studying democracy, human
rights etc. Perhaps, it’s time to stop it and just do it?
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Student
Student Posts: 14 Registered: 9/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 12/3/2005 at 15:54 |
So... Central Asia can offer democracy its new and adapted form with new
characteristics unique in their nature and which can be employed only in
Central Asia (considering our culture, traditions, behavior, etc. etc.).
But what can democracy offer Central Asians?... Perhaps, an opportunity to
compare different systems. Tajikistan, for example, takes examples of most
Western democratic countries and it resembles a "good" and "obedient"
democracy on the paper. But in reality it is hard to say that we are
approaching democracy in any way. I'd rather assume that it is merely a
parody to it.
Thus, democracy can offer Central Asians an opportunity to not only compare
systems, but also to take examples and implement them in our political,
economic and social systems for the betterment of our societies. Amen.
SM from Tajikistan
"Democratization" group
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Student
Student Posts: 6 Registered: 9/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/3/2005 at 15:56 |
democracy is the product of the west. we, the central asians, are trying
(or say that we're trying) to build democracy because we now live in the
world system whose terms/rules are dictated by the west. because they are
post-industrial, technologically advanced and bla, bla super countries.
when we got independent, knowing that 'the capitalist west' won the
'coldest war', we as small, very weak, fragile countries chose the western
path. saying that only democracy can give us to what we have been striving
for decades, that is economic prosperity and social liberties. and promised
to our people, as lenin did before its nation, that we would live in
democratic, open society just after some decades. but soon many got to
understand that democracy is not a small tree that you can plant on another
soil. of course, democracy is much more better than any kind of
nation-management. but the west does not want our people to live in
economically prosperous, free society, they just want our countries to be
democracies, that's 'no democracy - no money'. they urge, tell us what to
do and how to do (reshayte vy sami svoi vnutrennie problemy, blyad).
imagine if we got independent in pax sino era, not pax
americana/west/europa(whatever). and china was dictating that all countries
must be in sinocracy(or whatever of chinese origin). or pax india with its
approaching that caste system is the best kind of society. what do you
think, we would choose democracy or any other kind of bull...t which would
be dominant at that time?
angry to democracy
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Student
Student Posts: 7 Registered: 27/2/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 17/3/2005 at 22:08 |
To build a democratic society is not just to adopt some laws. It is a long
process. First of all, we should understand, or rather, feel the democracy.
And only afterwards it'll be possible to do smth. I admit that the system
we are living in now is not "an ideal democracy" but this is not the
reason to sit with your hands in pocket. Democracy can offer Central Asians
the right we hadn't for more than 10 centuries - freedom!! The way to build
democracy is mutual cooperation and in some way integration.
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Student
Student Posts: 7 Registered: 8/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 22/3/2005 at 17:38 |
Freedom? which freedoms in particular are u talking about? The
independence that we have at the time being is much different from the ways
it should be in reality. well, i am sure you are quite aware of the
situation in CA states. As for uzbeki part, it's just a"puppet democracy" .
Again, i would like to raise the issue of applicable democarcy. In our
case, this is toy democarcy. we have freedoms, but even these freedoms are
limited. I have a right to live and enjoy my opportunities to study, to
work, but I have no right to elect the one I want. What i mean is that
elections are conducted to fool int'l community and when i know that my
voice doesn't have any weight, it fully expresses that i am deprived of
real freedom to choose, the only thing that i have in reality is my right
which is written on the paper. obviously, it's much different from what our
parents had 10 years ago, however, today world should have been much better
place to live in.
UzWLU
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Student
Student Posts: 28 Registered: 19/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 25/3/2005 at 21:49 |
All but not revolution:)
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Student
Moderator Posts: 54 Registered: 18/5/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 26/3/2005 at 16:00 |
This is a great discussion! I love it!
Now, on the subject of revolution in practice there is a new topic just
posted about what is happening in Kyrgyzstan. But keep this chain going
please. Keep it at this great, philosophical level. And considering that
there are some real changes going on in Central Asia now, dig deeper.
Democracy obviously is still attractive. But what do you want it to look
like?
M
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Student
Student Posts: 14 Registered: 9/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 2/4/2005 at 15:14 |
I'd like to see democracy not as a mere justification for actions, which
most of the time are harmful for the society and stability in the country
(e.g. revolution atmosphere, widespread protesting mood, etc.), but as a
dream to be followed in our own way depending on our stage of development,
cultural traditions, and regional discrepancies in each Central Asian
state.
A dream and a goal differ only in that a goal has a certain deadline to be
reached, but a dream doesn't... Thus, I'd rather be dreaming about
democracy, which can never be achieved in its pure and ideal form. But on
its way, the maximization of effects of transparency, accountability,
freedom of expression, equality, non-discriminatory behavior, etc. is
extremely important.
Indeed, democracy is attractive... Unless we find an alternative, if it
doesn't fit within the framework of our regional peculiarities.
Best,
TJ, "Democratisation" group
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Student
Student Posts: 28 Registered: 3/3/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 7/4/2005 at 17:13 |
What I can say for sure is that we do not need any Western imposed way of
democracy. I am really sad with the activities of US embassy in KG. They
try to impose their democracy on us.
Why our countries are losing its control, all the cultural values and
traditions and imitating the WEST??? Of what kind of democracy are people
dreaming of in the sinking 'island of democracy'? Seems at time being many
do not understand the real significance of democracy. Is democracy a power
of people, where evryone is able to elect the leader of his country, to
freely express his/her opinion, can participate in the political life. But
KG events proved the opposite.
CA countries need to develop their owm democratic system, taking into
account all the cultural values which were accumulated from ancient times,
consider the lifestyle, mentality and the needs of its population. ____________________
Peace to all,
And let your thoughts flow naturally!
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Student
Student Posts: 3 Registered: 28/2/2005 Status: Offline
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posted on 28/4/2005 at 12:08 |
surprised when people get angry at idea of democracy. Maybe, because of the
indigenous “western” flavor (that for the most of the time is
the only reason that bitters people). Maybe we should invent some other
name, like halykcracy . When there is the name (slightly changed), there is
a form and content (slightly or to an unexpected greater degree changed as
well).
For me halykcracy means a continuous fluctuating dialogue and cooperation
between the state (elected authorities) and the citizens. As a process,
Halykcracy needs to move to a certain goal—economic prosperity, rule
of law, social justice,etc., but most important is not the end, but the
process, during which state and society constantly work together in order
to articulate and facilitate and mitigate the acute problems of population.
We all agree on one thing, that maybe for the CA states there may be an
alternative to democracy. But it looks like everybody failed to define what
this alternative is.
When I hear from pro-presidential political scientists, talking about
innate inertness of people in participation in political affairs as
argument for stronger state and democracy being a product of protestant
individualism that does not match the strong sense of community and
kinship, I remain sceptical and unimpressed.
Those of you, who say democracy in CA is different and should be evalluated
according to other criteria, please, tell me what the peculiarities of CA
democracy are
[Edited on 28/4/2005 ]
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